Curse

Tindalos · Jul 01, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Then we've had different experiences with the AI.

I've watched the henchies charge at a mass of mobs, without any input from me. I've watched Alesia stand there and zot away with her wand (at the begining of the fight) and not heal. I've called for henchies to follow and they remain engaged. I've called for them to follow during their madcap charge toward the mobs (Stefen and Tom love to do this) and they won't turn around. I've watched Devona stand in place while under attack and not fight back. I've called targets and watched the henchies not disengage their indvidual targets in order to focus fire. Orion's fire storm drops about 1 second after everything is dead and rarely during a fight.

In short, while the AI is better than many games it has a lot of room for improvement. I would note that it does not explicitly follows the instructions of the controller and people should be aware of that.

Now if you have 2 live people you can do, what we affectionately call, the "Henchie Shuffle" to keep the henchies in place for pulling. If you can keep them all together they tend to work better. Perhaps there is a distance effect to their willingness to respond to things, I'm not sure. What I am sure of, is that they will not always do what the human player instructs them to do, in so much as a human player can instruct.

If you have at least 1 other live person, and like to dance, it seems then henchies are easier to control.

Tindalos · Jul 01, 2005, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

You're kidding! Noone makes sure the enemy is really dead and not just faking as well as Orion!

I stand corrected on that one. He really does make sure they're dead!

kungfumonkey2 · Jul 01, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Sorry, but the Henchies after acenscion. The ones that are NPC's in the game like Mehnlo, Devona, Aiden are AWESOME. They are steps above most people that will party with you. Having a problem finding a monk? Grab Mehnlo, or Lina.

I have actually had numerous times where it was just a couple of henchies fighting, and I was dead. They managed to pull it off. They seem pretty smart too, because they will res the healer first, unless you click on your name.

I will now reveal the secret to doing missions with henchman. The best kept secret in the game. Here it is!!!

Target 1 monster at a time, and do not take on mobs larger than 5. A hench party can pretty easily handle around 5 monsters. With a couple of deaths. What you must do though is have an understanding of target of oppurtunity. Usually monk like monsters first, followed by mesmer type monsters, then casters. Click on 1 monster, and do not click on any others until that one is dead. If you go clickity clickity on different monsters. Here henchies will attack this one for awhile, then this one. Even if you are getting wooped on stay on target. Most people when they start taking fire freak. Side step about 3-4 steps to try and get out of the way, but you have to stay on target. Take out monsters that are softer, and are more detrimental to your cause, like imps first.

If henchies are being stubborn, then use CTRL and call a target. They will attack. Sometimes they do not read the team chat screen because they are busy in the heat of battle, and miss your OMGWTF NOOOBBBBSSS telling them they are doing something wrong.

Tindalos · Jul 01, 2005, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Wow we've derailed this topic.

I'll just note that henchies are not 100% anything, they do some random stuff and they do it frequently. They also seem to have pretty distinct personalities and capability (especially comparing Stefen to Tom). Mehnlo, I find to be worthless I prefer the Lina and Alesia combo to Mehnlo. Stefen is better than Tom and Devona is somewhere between. Cyn is pretty good, Eve I like (and she's well dressed). The difficulty of the game when using henchies is going to be directed by what professions the player has. I find the game can be far more difficult for a mesmer than for a warrior (for example) only because the mesmer has less staying power than the warrior and Alesia, again in my experience, just doesn't heal reliably.

There are regions of the game that are far more difficult than others. There are missions that are more difficult than others. I found thunderhead keep only beatable with human players by using the ballistas (playing as a mesmer). But Thirsty River, to me, wasn't as difficult. Dragon's Lair is easy with just henchies. Masses of hydra are not fun but with some patience I find it is possible to fight them in isolated packs 3 and they don't scatter from chaos storm. Though frequently you can get multiple groups fighting in succession in the desert and that can be extremely rough.

If you can find at least 1 other human player then I think that would help with the difficulty of certain areas as it is easier to work with the henchies and keep them organized.

silvertemplar · Jul 01, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Target 1 monster at a time, and do not take on mobs larger than 5.

You didnt explain the secret of "only aggroing a max of 5 mobs at a time" . How many jade scarabs usually pop out of the ground when a patrol of minotaurs decides to run past as well? Luring/Pulling with henchies is easier said than done :P

Of course the targeting is a problem too. Alot of classes do not have "single target" spells that works "on a target till he dies, on to next target". An Elementalist trying to drop a meteor shower can not target the mob that is already being killed [otherwise the spell fails if the mob is dead before he is done casting]. A Mesmer might have to target multiple mobs to get various hexes/disruptions on. A monk, well with henchies you got no choice, but healing monks can not be expected to target enemies as well....and so on.

[I am still looking for a way to get my henchies to aggro without ME actually attacking as well....?] How do you do it with a POT in your hands [which you can't drop?]

Lost · Jul 01, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

The fact is, the AI for this game is actually very good. The problem is that people expect the henchmen to be mind readers and realize that when you tell them to attack, you actually ment to run. It isnt bad artificial intelligence, it's a lack of human intelligence that will cause problems.

Exactly. I have had far more success using henchmen than I have with pick-up groups. Henchmen do exactly what you tell them to do. Since henchmen are extremely predictable, you should always know exactly how they will react to any given situation. This is a big bonus compared to the unpredictable human players who pretend to be "leet" and aggro every mob on the map.

kungfumonkey2 · Jul 01, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvertemplar

You didnt explain the secret of "only aggroing a max of 5 mobs at a time" . How many jade scarabs usually pop out of the ground when a patrol of minotaurs decides to run past as well? Luring/Pulling with henchies is easier said than done :P

Of course the targeting is a problem too. Alot of classes do not have "single target" spells that works "on a target till he dies, on to next target". An Elementalist trying to drop a meteor shower can not target the mob that is already being killed [otherwise the spell fails if the mob is dead before he is done casting]. A Mesmer might have to target multiple mobs to get various hexes/disruptions on. A monk, well with henchies you got no choice, but healing monks can not be expected to target enemies as well....and so on.

[I am still looking for a way to get my henchies to aggro without ME actually attacking as well....?] How do you do it with a POT in your hands [which you can't drop?]

Ok the secret to only aggroing 5 monsters at a time is go slow. Especially in an area with monsters that pop out of the ground. Take 5 steps wait for a breath. Monsters pop usually when you are within aggro range. The reason they are popping up all around you is that you are running, and by the time they come out of the ground and you notice you are in the middle of them. I think the most scarabs that pop out at one area, without running around and aggroing more is 6, and that is right outside Amnoon, usually a little to the left of that gully you start out in.

Patrols you can not help, they are meant to screw over your situation. Your best thing to do is watch their path. If an unforseen patrol comes and the 2 minotaurs are to much to handle, kill as many as you can before you go. That way when you res you can easily head back and fight much smaller numbers.

As far as an elementalist (AOE spell concern) goes, working with henchies is how you learn to be good. The trick is to TAB your target before you get into aggro range then press your skill use button (1,2,3 whatever). Your toon will then run into battle and as soon as you are in range will start to cast. You will see the skill flash while it is waiting to be cast. An elementalist cast range is just outside of Aggro. You will see your henchies rush past you into battle and start attack that target you are dropping your meteor shower on. By the time they get there it will be close to dead, henchies will finish it off. Then choose your next target. One that is in the middle of the mob. This way your AOE has the greatest over all area effect, and it will take your henchies just a little longer to get to them.

Ok I see the problem you are having with your monk. It is probably more of a problem for a warrior if they were to have to carry a POT, because they can not really cast. Here is the trick, try this. TAB your target, then hold CTRL while you press SPACE BAR. You may get an error message saying you can not fight, but it should still give your henchies a target to attack.

Shadow_Avenger · Jul 01, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Major derail.

Hmm, Take hanchies to Ice Floe and get to Marhan's Grotto. The henchies AI is good, but lets face it they are expendable, if they where actual players they would be -60, yes -60 I am 100% certain you will not get through without a hefty Death pen for Henchies and yourself. It is areas like this that actually spoil the game and the fun factor.
As for the crystal desert, you should have tried it when it was first released, the Hydra where in groups of 5+ not 3 like they are now and they where more heavily packed together, many of these areas where -60% death pen areas, but A.net have actually adjusted the area spawns so they are not as deadly.
It is not that the AI is poor, it is that alot of the Highend areas need rebalanceing as there are simply put TOO MANY creatures closely packed together. Pre ascention, if you accidently attracted another Mob, you had a 50/50 chance, either to win or get away. After ascention it is more like 85/15 that you will die.
If I go on any more, I'll drail topic in another direction